Stacy Summary: Sorry for delay in posting this but had to find my original files from studio today. Here is a 23 minute interview with Stefan Molyneux!
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NOW we are having a conversation! Bravo! I hope you asked Stefan about Marc Stevens. I would love to see you interview him as well. ONE LOVE!
Holip
This guy interviewed is a nut job,. I thought his property rights argument was stupid and inept so I went to his site and searched “property rights”,. the resulting podcast is a sting on non-arguments that just ramble on and on and never gets to any point,. he spends 20 min. trying to prove people are in control of their own bodies,. great. I really did not need to be convinced of that. Property is land, and oil, and actual stuff. I am still listening waiting for any argument about actual property.., oh, here we go a guy picks and orange and somehow this is the product of his body? Really? I thought a tree produced the orange.., silly me.
The problems I have with property rights is with land, oil, fish, etc, things that are common resources produced by the earth,. not peoples bodies. This is never addressed in this long winded pointless conveluted null argument,. it is just some lame attempt at justifing private ownership over everything,. property rights only exist through threats of force and this brakes his other main point,. self contradictry I say., this market anachism inevitably leads to the sick monopalistic war-machine capitalism we now have,. banksters and corporations are systematically taking resources that belong to all of us; privatizing all gains and socializing losses,.. this guy has no solution, only a bad attempt to justify the broken system while pushing for more market fudalism.
Sure got the numb skulls all all popping into each other, but this guy is brilliant. Awesome guest Max!
This is the first interview I’ve seen by Stefan Molyneux and he was quite impressive. He nailed Rothbard’s non-aggression axoim, clearly explained Hoppe’s argument on self ownership and the contradictions inherent to an argument against property rights, and Hoppe’s points on the peculiar incentives of a democratic govt. Really well done. But he blew Max’s softball question at the end of the interview on Intellectual Property. The best answer is that there is no such thing as Intellectual Property. IP is a legal fiction. Property rights can only exist in things that are scarce. With file sharing, my ability to enjoy a song does not in any way hamper your ability to simutaneously enjoy the song. Indeed, my song is a copy of your song and not the same one that you would be listening to. Creating property rights in intangible things artificially reduces the amount of people that can enjoy the thing. It is welfare reducing in the purest sense. For more see Stephan Kinsella’s Against Intellectual Property (http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf). Great interview Max!
Michael
“Historically, the modern nation state has helped deliver the people from the tyranny of arbitrary individuals. Sure, government does get corrupted but it still offers a framework of power balance. Don’t judge government by the bad example of the United States where feudal, mafia-like cliques have usurped a state in order to overthrow it. Essentially with the same goal in mind as Mr Molyneux: no government. It is these cliques that are responsible for the misallocation of tax dollars from projects for the people to projects for the few.”
Hurrah, some sense on this thread.
I find libertarians somewhat suspicious. Essentially people are social beings or are happiest when the social framework of society is condusive to social interaction. The current neoliberal climate, a kind of proxy darwinism hiding behind the nation state, is, as far as i can see, ultimately condusive to destructive behaviour, picking up an automatic rifle and shooting a bunch of strangers being one of the more extreme examples of this.
I think libertariansim is just turning your back on the concept of society which i can understand, its something i’d like to do myself, but its defeatism and worse, its naive.
Ivan was not Forodor chArles, the suffering of Ivan was of his own hand while the suffering of his creator was the pure form, fordged by the hand of God for a direct purpose, that brand of suffering that can bring a man low, to that place that pride is finally discharged from our purpose. When the man yeilds, that is the beauty of the OT, seeing the work of stripping these barnacles of pride, they are hard and their roots run deep. This is why the man will cry out. He has dicovered the depth of his pettiness. But only now is this man of any use, only now can his hand make use of truth, because it will not be his own hand. But what do we own? Not even this reality. We steer in defiance of our loathing of compliance to a suspended world where we are making choices. And this is a dream, and if prolonged it will become a horror. I have seen this horror, I know it, this was a gift and blessing. For the Christian who does not know this, there is more of the journey to travel, for the Christian who does, there is only work to do.
Thanks for you time chArles
@ cultamerica
But could I dare ask why you care?
could be poetic and say the Devil is his creators strongest advocate against those he deems unworthy of her GRACE…but doubt if many would understand that…could state have grown weary of a bastardized vision of G-d’s infinite grace by her advocates who still use her as a club…could take the elitist pose and say the literal have done more harm with the Word than any good that could have been recouped…or maybe just bored at work
@” Fyodor at last found light in the darkness, your words remind me of a man looking for the light switch with a sledge hammer.”
that’s because I’m playing the role of Ivan in this morality play. The tears of a child outweigh infinite GRACE…but I gave an onion so I’m a’right.
@ Are you looking for peace, or revolution?
as a child a Heaven of Hell and Hell of Heaven, now indifference
@ Do you hope to enlighten, or bring someone to a place where you now find yourself?
niether, do not believe one is possible humanity has lost itself, and dispite my Hatred don’t wish ill of anyone let alone to be pulled down to my realm
@ Your argument is sleek, and I in your position would take pride in it, but to my ear it is constructed out of daggers and despair.
Pride such harsh word to use, you wound me…but alas I have dance this dance once or twice and do take comfort in knowing the steps by heart, as for as despair goes, I know I will be welcomed back with open arms any time I chose it, so my suffering is only as great as I will it.
@ Should we be repulsed by the infusion of utilitarianism into the faith, why yes, but what concern is that of one who has walked away?
because it may reveal a new TRUTH that has been clouded by mindless adherence to a creed that has failed to salvage all
in Dante’s holy little laugh fest…the Devil is shown to be crying….do you know why? a child’s answer he is absent G-d’s infinite Grace, but he is only as far from his creator as he wills it…so why the show?
because he is right
@ Mark Lytle
as to tone…they weren’t taking shots at me but you, and my smashing a bronze age text reader isn’t being harsh, if someone is putting forth ideas that I believe we as a specis have outpaced I am entitled to tell them their text isn’t worthy of their commitment…just if I was here obsessively quoting Hericlitus that would be within their right to say that isn’t adding anything to the conversation…call me elitist if you want to
I don’t see Jesus being as duplicitious as you would have me believe…in him not openly attacking the Bronze age text because he was trying to attract a crowd…I maintain his open difiance of the religious dogma of the day is what attracted folks to him….he came with a sword least we forget to set child against parent and wife against spouse
@ Michael “Are we in a religious forum? Seriously, guys.”
Like it or not economics is a religious issue. The situation we are in today is religious and the answer is religious. What you believe is right and just is religious.
Are we in a religious forum? Seriously, guys.
Max, good job interviewing an otherwise stereotypical RADICAL LIBERTARIAN, the sort that sound interesting at first but then you notice that their perceived edginess is actually CONCEIVED WISDOM ON STEROIDS – nothing new at all, same old thing but worse. Let me explain:
Notwithstanding his self-chosen title of “Voluntarist” his ideas sound like they are coming from an ANARCHO-CAPITALIST. This ill-named school of thought is nothing but conservative economics in extremis: no government altogether instead of “small government”. It is simplistic ideology, of the same ilk as Ayn Rand’s disfunctional leavings.
Anarcho-Capitalism essentially tries to force reality to conform to the theoretical model of a free market place. It is therefore completely radical and dangerously removed from anything humane.
Yes, government is the source of much badness, however we do know what takes its place in government’s absence: feudalism. That is, raw power will assert itself; some people’s “enlightened” self-interest will triumph over other’s. You end up with a Mafia model of society (also known as the Middle Ages). And, yes, there will be war, government has no monopoly on it.
Historically, the modern nation state has helped deliver the people from the tyranny of arbitrary individuals. Sure, government does get corrupted but it still offers a framework of power balance. Don’t judge government by the bad example of the United States where feudal, mafia-like cliques have usurped a state in order to overthrow it. Essentially with the same goal in mind as Mr Molyneux: no government. It is these cliques that are responsible for the misallocation of tax dollars from projects for the people to projects for the few.
read your quote and tell me honestly what posseses a Man to worship such a beast? ChArles
The Lord longs to be gracious but He is the final Judge too. Would you prefer an impersonal Universe with no possibility of mercy? Read Jeremiah, if you please. The Lord gave the Jews time after time to repent but they refused or went back on their solemn oath:
Jeremiah 34:8-32 (New American Standard Bible)
As for America’s wars, they are an abomination,IMO. I have made that clear on several occasions. Must I make it clear on every occasion?
Jefferson declared war on the Middle East in response to acts of piracy? Did I miss that one? I thought Jefferson used a letter of marque..? I have to disagree with Molyneux that the government was founded on “genocide of the Native Americans.” That it occurred is not disputed, but it wasn’t founded upon that. What happened, which is what always happens, is that psychopaths found their way into the government and military and began acting as psychopaths do…and that’s what we’ve got today. Absolute psychopaths in positions of power and influence. America is pretty much toast.
Watched the third clip. Exactly… but government is different from the statist oligarchy.
A government has just courts and only one civil tax ( 1/2 shekel silver from every man 20+years). The law applies to all. There are no long term prisons. The law itself is righteous. The government also includes sacraments, diet and an awe for creation – a faith that the government will restore all things to “very good”. It has a hope and future orientation and a family centered vehicle. It has a day of rest, a 7th and 50th year of rest for the entire creation and economy. It does not tolerate treason against the family.
People prefer the statist oligarchy because they love prisons, larceny, adultry, murder, gluttony, autonomy, self-pity, viagra, magic ….
@Tao
Yes, I see your point on that.
@Mark Lytle,
Mises didn’t get it wrong. He lied. That’s what propagandists do.
Mises was simply too brilliant to be that wrong unintentionally. He had a massive intellect, and he was not the least bit naive.
I watched the second clip.
History has shown… Moses…, Augustine…, Justinian …, Charlemagne…, Alfred the Great…, Napoleon…., Cromwell… that man is not capable of selfless self-moral-dictate.
Stefan and Max fear have moved people and does move people. People are mostly cowards.
There must be one that knows how all things work. There must be a good shepherd and just courts. There is only one that is knowledgeable, good and just. And, by the posts on this blog, one that strikes fear in the heart of men towards either revolt or peace.
@Tao
Interesting quotes….I think The Libertarian got it wrong, although I’m slightly Libertarian myself…
I see Jesus as a gentle Hell-raiser! Subtle to a fault, but blunt where necessary..
“Jesus was no social reformer. His teachings had no moral application to life on earth, and his instructions to the disciples only have a meaning in the light of their immediate aim—to await the Lord with girded loins and burning lamps, ‘that when he cometh and knocketh, they may straightaway open unto him.’”
–Ludwig Von Mises, Socialism (1932)
http://www.econlib.org/library/Mises/msS10.html
“Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. ‘It is written,’ he said to them, ”My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.”’”
Matthew 21:12-13 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21%3A12-13&version=NIV
John The Baptist was a contrarian.
You know, survived on a diet of honey-garlic locusts.
@cultamerica
Well you know, both side in this debate could be a little gentler. I’ve been called some pretty rough names here, but I’m a Yankee, we don’t react. I focus on Jesus, because he claimed the title of King of the Jews, he knew they would reject him on all counts because he didn’t come with a flaming sword to drive the Romans out. But Christians are still trying to recruit him for military causes and conquests, and that is what makes a lot of people hostile. What did Gandi say? “I like your Christ but not your Christians.”
I was more fortunate. I married a very fine Christian lady. If she was like most, I would never had come near..
@talcott
Just caught up with your Paul Craig Roberts piece. He is a deep thinker and I have quoted him to others…good choice…
chArles, forgive my intrusion here, but to your Q “what posseses a Man to worship such a beast?”, my answer would be that our calling demands it. But could I dare ask why you care? You reference my good man Fyodor, but his sensitivity and heart were evident in every line. I do not find this in your words. Vonnegut does comes to mind though. Fyodor at last found light in the darkness, your words remind me of a man looking for the light switch with a sledge hammer. Are you looking for peace, or revolution? Do you hope to enlighten, or bring someone to a place where you now find yourself? Your argument is sleek, and I in your position would take pride in it, but to my ear it is constructed out of daggers and despair. Should we be repulsed by the infusion of utilitarianism into the faith, why yes, but what concern is that of one who has walked away?
O.K. we’ll correct this statement to conform to many here. Here goes:
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven. Except those Canaanite kids, they had to go…”
10 signs US is becoming a third world country.
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html
I also highly doubt Jesus would have condoned what happened in joshua if pressed…He wasn’t a baby killer…
It is the inability of Christians to see the problems with Joshua , that mkes them easily led to war with other cultures today. The statement that Jesus supported the scriptures makes sense. He had to say that to ‘sell ‘himself to the Jews. It didn’t work by the way.
@ F. Beard
read your quote and tell me honestly what posseses a Man to worship such a beast?
that “thing” is a murderous monster…if you are unable to see it then you have failed in a way Job did not…our conception of G-d alters dependent upon man’s changing state with it’s enviroment…your Bronze age monstrosity is a reflection of man terrorfied of its world, a beast living under constant threat from it’s enviroment…we are no longer that animal…and Job was the turning point in that wandering tribe conception of G-d…allowing a more benevolet understanding….gave the world a half way decent philosphy until it got merged with the state and Empire, but it’s soul was still there…but even that glimmer of the Faith sorta got smashed up in the last Century with the advancement in science and then both science and religions failure to answer the great questions of the 20th century…untold human slaughter…but the Janus head adapted the best it could
read some Kierkegaard,Tolstoy, Doestesky, Samual Becket, Paul Tillich Reinhold Niebuhr or Gabriel Honoré Marcel
I am not taking a cheap shot here Beard the Cheap shot would be to point out the great sin of modern Government was to tax you for schools you do not wish your children to attend…that is you great ifringment by this society against the virtous man, the sin that pops forth in your mind…not one million dead people who just had the misfortune to be born in Iraq that this government has slaughtered, with my and your tax dollars…truthfully if they spent the money on that war towards building schools for all the bastard children in the world I would not so much as utter a peeep…
this comment is SAD Beard
“One way the current structure penalizes the virtuous is that they are taxed for schools that they would rather not send their kids too.”
that is what sprang forth so quickly to the minds eye…and you are unable to see that is sad, which you can’t because your G-d is a monsterous G-d, a literal G-d of a bronze age text…coupled with your new G-d of Mammon that you have been induced into worshiping if you are fretting over taxes/money, give Ceaser his coin, and get over the parroting
but Job wasn’t virtous he was a whinner chArles
“Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 14:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)
I don’t think the US evoked “property rights” to justify looting Iraqi oil.
We lied and used the “self defense” alibi, to steal the property.
This is not an Adam Smith principle and cannot be used to disprove Smith.
Ahhh JOB…that’s my boy…he also was smart enough to recognize that his conception of morality had superseded his creator and SHUT UP before calling old G-d out
great book by old Carl Jung entitled “An answer to Job” worth a read…but Job wasn’t virtous he was a whinner
Max,
Your interaction with Stefan Molyneux was the best that I have seen you do. Most of your guests tend to “resist” your “shaping” their ideas to compare with your own (i.e. your reference to fraud as a counterfeit); but Stefan and yourself were participating in the “free exchange” principles that you were discussing; well done! I recommend that you have Stefan on frequently and you will do a great service to your viewers; as these viewers rarely get such a sterling example of “real debate” that occurs between the two of you.
Yours,
Mark B.
OK, try this one:We can be “cured” of the ill effects dichotomy only voluntarily: “for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”
This is why in universal personhood it is recommended to: “ reckon ye also yourselves to be dead” . This is akin to self hypnosis. “transformed by the renewing of your mind”,“Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” ,“above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.”, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.”, ” But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.”
…you can’t reward or punish the virtous man/women…that is my statement…we can judge the actions taken against said person…but the virtous sees neither penalty or reward for his/her life chArles
I disagree. Job was righteous but he complained to God. He WAS suffering.
One way the current structure penalizes the virtuous is that they are taxed for schools that they would rather not send their kids too.
@ F. Beard
and your quote refutes me how?
that suffering is to be human and be worthy of your G-d? seriously at a lost my contention to you was that you said your little Libertarian wet dream would be more just to the virtous man/woman because they wouldn’t be penalized like our current structure penelizes the virtous…you can’t reward or punish the virtous man/women…that is my statement…we can judge the actions taken against said person…but the virtous sees neither penalty or reward for his/her life
AGAIN sucks…BUT THAT’S THE GAME…is that possible to live that life? even the little jewish kid failed
also friendly advice…internalize the word…make it your own…don’t parrot it
anyone can copy and paste…and parroting any work or any man words lessens them…it was a cool palor trick when I was 12, but hopefully in life we become comfortable enough with our own voice to raise it in the great debate of life
All religions use force, therefore violate Molyneux’s non-aggression principle. Christianity has probably been the worst offender.
No wonder some people say Molyneux is a cult leader. His views, if practiced, would completely free humanity. Religion, government, and big business would be very concerned and frightened if his ideas grabbed a foothold into the human psyche.
@ Max – This was a great interview. You were on your game. I would love to see a follow-up where you press Molyneux on how to implement his ideas.
Now that would be a true revolution.
The thing i really appreciate about Max is that he seems open to the various standpoints on the current financial/political/eco dilemna yet you sense his anlysis is somehow steered by a positive morality and intelligence that simultaneously isnt overbearing. Intelligence, humour, morality, analysis and a decent portion of cynicism. Max you should be speaking to the masses.
there is no penalty to be paid in ANY society to live a virtous life chArles
… therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
One of the things about the Bible I love is that it does not deny reality.
@Max
I agree with this article: You must read.
http://www.infowars.com/the-ecstasy-of-empire/
I think your site is going to have to get superfocused over the remainder of 2010…at some point, some tipping points are going to tip and events are going to accelerate. You had better revisit your claim of an economic malaise (deflation) like Japan. It is going to get very short, very nasty and very brutish…and soon and indeed.
@ this
“A libertarian society would not penalize virtue as our present one does.”
there is no penalty to be paid in ANY society to live a virtous life…reread the Prodigal son…Virtue to be true must be internalize and become who you are and how you conduct your affairs therefore you seek no praise or suffer any harm from doing this
doesn’t mean an outside subject may say you were just or you were treated poorly….but the subject recognizes neither
sucks being a Christian don’t it no glory and no whinning
@Old Testament ‘genocide’
God is demonstrating his perfect Justice…
harsh, maybe, definitive, certianly.
..in Christ his perfect Mercy.
In addition to possibility the residents of Canaan were offspring of fallen spiritual entities.
“One final point: even if we were to accept that the slaughtered Canaanites were not fully human, this hardly solves our bigger problem of reconciling the violent-tending God of the Old Testament with the self-sacrificial God of the New Testament, for there are plenty of other violent episodes Yahweh engages in against people, often using his people as warriors. This is the very sort of behavior Jesus forbids. So…let’s keep reading and thinking.”
http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/yahwehs-war-against-the-nephilim/
1 Cpr 10:11Now all these things happened unto them(Israel) for examples: and they are written for our admonition.
It ain’t those parts of the Bible
that I can’t understand that bother me,
it is the parts that I do understand.-Mark Twain
Aaaargh, another libertarian! But he seemes a nice chap, it would take a long time for a new philosophical/moral paradigm to establish itself, if it ever could universally though (its never happened before).
Somehow whenever i listen to libertarians i always get these flashbacks to a charlton heston film called the Omega Man! Dont know why.
The idea of government is simply a form of arbitration and coordination of large groups of people, doesnt seem to me to be intrinsicaly evil but i agree that an important part of any society is a philosophical//moral consensus although helpful is always a certain level of individual awarenss which seems increasingly lacking. I think that some form of socialism is the right way despite the mistakes of history.
Liked his idea about idiot philosophy though although humour does sometimes short circuit (or at least divert) thought processes, oh its all so complex, better go to bed.
My cousin’s daughter has been released from the hospital to go home to pass away from cancer. She likely won’t survive another 48 hours.
To my mind Stephan and Max are discussing a world where Jesus’ values could be adopted and exercised to whatever exteme you wanted. More importantly, true free will places the responsibility directly on your own shoulders. I Doug Graves
You’ve nailed it! A libertarian society would not penalize virtue as our present one does. But evil is always seeking to leverage itself via government privilege or power. Good shall always prevail on a level playing field but of course evil won’t allow such a thing if it can get away with it. Hence the government backed banking cartel among others.
Awesome interview Max. I listened to this essay by Lysander Spooner the other day that talks about this very ethic. It’s long, but very much worth a couple of hours… has some entertainment value as well. I include the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJTWa5v24I&playnext=1&videos=OQJT523a8Hk&feature=sub
To F. Beard: In the society these fellas are talking about you would be free to believe and do as you choose. To my mind Stephan and Max are discussing a world where Jesus’ values could be adopted and exercised to whatever exteme you wanted. More importantly, true free will places the responsibility directly on your own shoulders. I believe in the Jesus teachings; my only difficulty lies in how doctrine has been hijacked by the state. God Bless.
Yeah I become atheist when I think about the Old Terstamant. Jesus was quite different. Nothing to do with bastards like Bush and Clinton or right wing evanlegical USA fascists.
The Bible with all its racism and genocides done in the name of God who supposedly chose a certain people in question for a piece of real estate in a desert, is NOT a reference of moral code to implement, specially the Old Testament. Nice passages but globally the message is the following. We are the chosen people and we can exterminate and genocide who we want in the name of God. Guns Oil and Drugs. That’s the Old Testament. Things never change. So when do they exterminate Iran in the name of their judeo-christian loving God ?
@Mark Lytle
The Hebrews were a nation chosen by God via Abraham to SET them apart from the pagan Baal worship and of course Molech that is why Jehovah punished the Hebrew nation when they allowed there children to pass through fire. Became they were no different from the nations they needed to be disciplined. I have noticed when it comes to Christianity your argument is tainted with uneducated prejudice the bible is the greatist book ever written,read it in context, my advice at least 3/4 times,honest you will enjoy it.
I just watched the first clip. …Exactly! But where are these moral dictates going to come from? Who is the authority? Because I am an Orthodox Anglican Christian… I say my Triune God. But I am not going to coerce others to do the same, except my children and those who work for me.
I don’t want the state to coerce me into accepting moral dictates that are against my faith either. Income tax…, debt longer than 6 years, sex outside the bonds of marriage, abortion, unjust war, unjust war, unjust war, … are against my faith. my tax money pays for these things.
I need to watch the other two…
What would Jesus do? Mark Lytle
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-36 (New American Standard Bible)
Notice Jesus said “(and the Scripture cannot be broken)” but you Mark Lytle presume it is broken?
It does you no good to try to pit Jesus against the OT since He upholds it.
@ “I wish for you a celebration feast that features a fatted calf”
cool, but I do not seek nor expect a reward for doing what I believe to be correct…that is the best reading of that parable IMHO
What would Jesus do?
“As for me, I’ll simply report that the Canaanites were burning their children alive to Molech; a habit the Hebrews eventually picked up from them since they FAILED to destroy or drive them out.”
Obviously, I know about this.
OT Logic: How do you stop the Canaanites from killing their kids?
OT answer, We (Hebrews) will kill their kids instead (and the parents of course). Oh, and by the way, we get their land, you know, reward for good behavior.
Right..
More OT logic: We picked up these bad habits from the Canaanites ’cause we didn’t kill enough of them.
So anybody has bad behavior, you have to kill them lest you get infected by it? Ever hear of self control?
As the U.S. goes bankrupt, belly up, dead, out of here, where was the protests against expensive cruel foreign wars, where is the rage against big money? Where are the Christians to walk into the temple and throw out the money lenders? Mark Lytle
Sadly, many of them are deceived because they do NOT read the Bible, particularly the Old Testament which you disparage and which many of them seem to be ashamed of. Instead they follow war-mongering pastors who worship their tax deduction more than God.
I would entreat many out there to hold Christian’s political views to the standard Jesus taught, A great deal of Jesus ministry dealt with people of money, of the empire. Judas was a tax collector, and I think the word ‘tax collector’ was used as a pejoritive in Matthew close to a dozen times. Then there was Jesus’ rage at the moneylenders in the temple. And the parable of the young man wanting to go into heaven, and the response about a camel though the eye of a needle, I know you’ve all heard these stories. So Christians run around harrassing gay people, not that gay is good, but there are a lot bigger things going down that need attention.
As the U.S. goes bankrupt, belly up, dead, out of here, where was the protests against expensive cruel foreign wars, where is the rage against big money? Where are the Christians to walk into the temple and throw out the money lenders? They ain’t there. My wife is the real McCoy, and I honor her for that, but so many out there are just totally backwards in what they value compared to what they preach. And the world keeps goin’ down the tubes..
@Mark Lytle, please allow me to suggest some teaching which I highly value, and that may clarify some OT, NT issues for you. Teacher is Dr. Jack B. Scott of Greenville Seminary & Mt. Olive. This is reformed teaching by the way…
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=old%20testament%20survey%20#
I grew to greatly respect this man through this series, and my understanding of the OT finally gelled, and has made all the difference.
In Joshua and Judges, people where just judged ‘evil’ and annihilated down to the infants, without debate or discourse. Mark Lytle
You are so full of it. My original appraisal of you as shallow and conventional is verified. You might terrorize a simple Bible study but more sophisticated Bible scholars both Jewish and Christian would make short work of you.
As for me, I’ll simply report that the Canaanites were burning their children alive to Molech; a habit the Hebrews eventually picked up from them since they FAILED to destroy or drive them out.
@ chArles, I wish for you a celebration feast that features a fatted calf.
not picking a fight, but could it possible be that it is the dominant narrative that the conquors used that caused people to write books refuting it? chArles
Of course the ruling elites are always trying to get religious justification for their rule but 1) the Bible strongly warned against centralized power (1 Samuel 8:4-22) and 2) openly criticized Judah’s and Israel’s kings (1st Kings, for example). It’s pretty complicated as reality often is.
…@Tao
I agree with your comments. There was a certain arbitrariness in the way the Bible was stitched together. I caused great consternation in my wife’s bible study when we come across various parts of the Old Testament, and I say what would Jesus do here? (Instead of whoever is the protagonist in the currently read story). It’s like they all have read each book in the presence of ‘trainers’ way back when, and only those interpretations and ways of ‘looking’ at each book are acceptable and no other. Having done this for a while they are more comfortable with me doing this, and have given up the mantra that there are no disagreements between the OT and the NT. But certainly, we are all dealing with translations, as you say. When you hop from Aramaic to Greek, to middle English, and so forth, meanings and specifics can be lost or distorted.
Overall, I think the OT focuses on obedience to God (which really means the Jewish Priesthood, unless you are hearing voices in your head), and the NT stress the Spirit, which bypasses the by then, discredited Pharisees. Jesus entreats people to test everything, maintain some skepticism of both the world and the Roman/Hebrew hierarchies and hold true to the principals He taught. A very different kettle of fish, as they say…But most of the time, you will see compartmentalization and resistance to cross fertilization of NT concepts with OT concepts. This by the way, is why Christians have avoided opposing the American empire as it grew. Jesus would never have condemned a population to destruction without talking to them first. In Joshua and Judges, people where just judged ‘evil’ and annihilated down to the infants, without debate or discourse. These are non-trivial behavioral differences. The U.S. expansion across the continent was a Joshua style advance, ultimately giving the native Americans no quarter. The folk songs of the era (still occasionally recorded) , talked about the American West as the ‘promised land’. None of this land grabbing is Christian, it’s OT all the way…
In the not too distant future, I think America will pay the price for her Imperialist ways…Christians that follow OT ethics (or lack thereof) shouldn’t be surprised
@ “No one bothers refuting Islam, Buddhism Hinduism or even Mormonism much because they are not much of a threat. But there are hundreds of books attempting to refute the Bible since it IS so plausible.”
not picking a fight, but could it possible be that it is the dominant narrative that the conquors used that caused people to write books refuting it? if Islam held as many or held as much power as those Western states that grew out from the Christian RELIGION I would wager it would produce just as many books trying to refute it.
@ Mother
as to LOVE I don’t take issue with the process you articulate…but by the time the concept has arisen to be labeled LOVE there is no “Self” present…there exist just the concept…least that is the belief I work under
Property is Theft…ahhh Proudhon, said more as a joke that Rousy naturally lead me into becoming an Anarchist…both Marxist and Capitolist jump the shark on equating SELF with ownership of property…something rings hollow to my tin ear with this
on Logic…again there is something fishy here me thinks…I think Quinne and Davidson do a decent account in showing how this is also circular in nature and doesn’t deserve it’s lofty place above other little narratives have constructed…I just sometimes no longer possess the wattage to make arguement…truthfully I still believe there is something to Psychologoism and Husserl smashed that at the begining of the last century
you are right to state there is a circular nature to empathy…I believe this exist for all concepts and why I am an antifoundationalist…but “we” have to get something off the ground and I believe “empathy” is the best “we” got…sorry I am a secular humanist who rejects the divinity of rationlism, so this is where I am left at the end of the day
@Max & Stacy — Great guest. But first: Wikileaks has had an enormous impact in redefining the US foreign policy debate?! Really. Starting to remind me of when you & Stacy hoped that Obama would turn out to be a non-puppet.
Outside of financial scandals, there’s this pattern of weak, trusting, ideological analysis from y’all… too much concern with surface signals and constructing a portfolio of effective narratives… you’re simply not “cynical” enough.
Dare to question your assumptions, dare to identify your blind spots — be brave enough to tell your audience you’re not 100% sure of something — why can’t you make that a part of your schtick?
*Long angry sigh*
apologies for the typos, its still early here
The contention that Government is legalised /organised violence is perfectly born out by history. Ever since mankind settled to farm his property was subjected to attack by violent men. These violent men eventually understood it was better to “milk” their farmers rather than kill them and rob them and so government was formed and exists to this day to milk their serfs and to acquire other government serfs through the use of force and/or violence.
Once we realise that a governement is the source of almost all our problems then the only solution for people is to opt out of the system. If enough serfs opt out the government and its violence will expend itself, like Don Quixote on windmills. Opt out people, think small, build communities and support each other. Stop all voting. Imagine if an election was run and there where zero votes—no legitimacy for anyone of these blood suckers. How much more will it take to galvanise huminaty to jusr opt out to be free??
If but only by some magic people could be woken up from the midless MSM, the endless brad and circus acts on TV amd the drivel from hollywood then there may be some hope–I have gone it alone, opt out, no voting, independent as much as possible, lead by example, the worst that can happen is that you will survive the coming collapse better than most.
Check out Bard Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” for his personal journey in discovering this fact. Tao
Been there, done that but not with Mr Ehrman in particular. I spent decades arriving at what i trust as my spiritual authority. I am well satisfied with the Bible from an historical, archeological, scientific, moral, medical, and logical consistency view point. It is the only game in town as far as “holy” books go. No one bothers refuting Islam, Buddhism Hinduism or even Mormonism much because they are not much of a threat. But there are hundreds of books attempting to refute the Bible since it IS so plausible. As for the RCC, who is going to trust a church that allowed the molestation of children?
CORRECTION on Stefan Molyneux’s Youtube website :
http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot
There once lived the Bound Man who every day was untied and set free from his cage to perform at the circus. One day, the Bound Man escaped and ran into the nearby forest. He felt freedom beneath his feet and saw liberty to pursue new dreams as the beacon leading him forward. He ran and ran until he came to a small pool of water. As he stooped down to take a drink he noticed his reflection for the first time staring back at him.
Fixated on his reflection, he sat there mesmerized until the circus keepers came and dragged him back to his cage where the Bound Man performed until the end of his days.
Yes, understanding how we are bound is the first step toward any progressive action. However, all of these radio hosts, experts, and thinkers (including our wonderful Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert) seem to be so mesmerized by issues (our reflection) that we are running into the forest without a true purpose ahead on which to focus. We are running only to be dragged back into serfdom.
I am talking about the need for specific and immediate solutions. Entrepreneurs? Street-revived currencies? Innovation? No more talking about running to the hills, or other countries? What are the people doing and what can we do further specifically that involved REAL action, not a lot of pointless shouting.
Come on Bound Men, the Circus Keepers are hot on our tail. SNAP OUT OF IT!
@chArles
Love the abolition of self, not quite, the substance of love makes that the brain grabs all it percieves and makes it into one living thing, combined with what it percieves is self. So love means inclusion into the self, hence the folk psychology term ‘becoming one’..There is a lot to say about how love works..
Property is theft? I say all trade is theft as it is seldomly equitable, I would say all property is denial of access, which is nothing wierd in nature, it is basic territorial behaviour, hence the agression it triggers. The problem is that rulers do not want chaos as it’s like a tornado that can suddely decide to come their way. So they inductrinate the people which only works weakly and against resistance. What works best is a small tribe with a strong leader free to exert judgement. If one fails, than there are many others left. Now the entire human freakin race is at risk.
I took a hard stance against self referencing philosophy. I found it ultimately blind. I had to cold turkey from logic at some point (I was hooked), logic is a special case of reasoning (post perceptive), most mental processes are ‘analog’ and much more intriguing..
Morality ‘it is driven by the human emotion namely empathy’..Empathy happens because we understand by immitating, which is accompanied by feelings. So folloing your assertion in the act of empathy our own moral judgement is accessed, which makes the explanation circular.. Empathy is a process, not an emotion imho..
“I am careful to quote Scripture not interpret it.”
But the English language version of the Scripture itself is an interpretation of the original Scripture, which in turn is a hindsight interpretation of events long past (usually decades after they occurred), and what was selected as Scripture versus what was discarded as apocrypha was itself a form of interpretation. It is impossible to quote scripture without invoking human interpretations of it.
Check out Bard Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” for his personal journey in discovering this fact.
great interview today…….thank you Max and Stacy……this inspired me to peruse Stefan’s website and check out some more of his videos…….http://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot?blend=1&ob=4
(c) Therefore, in seeking less aggressive action in your environment, one would rationally desire less Government, as it is a repository of that which you would like to minimize
You’re making a crucial mistake – ignoring non-government aggression and the limits placed on that by government aggression. Reducing government aggression is pointless if the increase in non-government aggression outstrips it. Your desire is not rational at all.
uhmmm….uhmmmm. you see the problem there don’t you? chArles
Not really. I am careful to quote Scripture not interpret it. Now of course I do use my judgment in what I quote but that is not the same as promoting my own private thoughts.
@ in reference to scripture one is advised to stay away from” human interpretations as much as possible.”
uhmmm….uhmmmm. you see the problem there don’t you?
and your quote doesn’t dispell my conception of Lucifer’s fall…actually it increases its power because your creation is Demanding to place the “I” above all of creation…seems like that was my point
in Christian mythos with an exisentialist bent Lucifer rebels because he was unwilling to surrender the I and lose SELF in G-d’s eternal LOVE. chArles
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ Isaiah 14:12-14 (New American Standard Bible)
I always understood the conception of LOVE as the abolition/absolving of SELF… chArles
And he answered, ” YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” Luke 10:27
… several Jesuits help nurse this concept growing up … chArles
Ah, there is the problem. One should stick with Scripture alone (sola Scriptura) and forsake human interpretations as much as possible.
@ cultamerica
I always understood the conception of LOVE as the abolition/absolving of SELF…there no longer is the great “I” but there just is…several Jesuits help nurse this concept growing up
in Christian mythos with an exisentialist bent Lucifer rebels because he was unwilling to surrender the I and lose SELF in G-d’s eternal LOVE.
oh yea grew up a Baptist but have always been and remain an atheist
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone comported themselves as Molyneux envisions? Unfortunately, since time began, this hasn’t been the case. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good dream, but it’s a dream none the less.
Debt Based Currency is a big part of our disfunctional eco-systems. Humans’ future earning potential should be part of currency value, also, energy productivity, and other productivities should be part of currency valuations. Letting banks and central banks own the money supply is part of the problem. THE REAL ECONOMY DOESN’T OWN THE MONEY, we are just pawns for the big banks including our inept central bank. that’s part of the global problem, also, govt workers are way over paid and under productive, IE: bell california.. the poster child for bad govt.
@ Richard
love the quote…old Rousy set me on my path with his “Discourse on inequality” when I was a weee lad of 9…didn’t get everything but knew there was something to the intro “man is born free yet everywhere he is in chains” and he get’s himself enslaved by accepting the world of others, their conceptions/values
so I would be careful reading ole Rousy next thing you know you’ll be screaming
“PROPERTY IS THEFT”
@Talcott, well stated.
The american version of Christianity is far from recognizable in light of the text. The cult of self, and self hate have built a false structure that is thought to be a true representation of Christianity. This lie will allow for many crimes, large and small. Where do those who follow blind guides end up? The very place America is now, and we are not alone. The failure to love our neighbor can be traced to our seductive understanding that it is our love that must be extended, but there is no love that can extend, or originate from the self alone.
I found this interview of Molyneux much more interesting and entertaining than the last one. Nevertheless, what he espouses cannot be achieved.
Rationality is an illusion. The human brain is hardwired to compare what it experiences to what it expects and to act accordingly. This very basic function influences everything we do from maintaining our balance to philosophizing. Unfortunately, built into this basic function are a set of filters to prevent overcompensation. In higher order cognition, these filters manifest themselves as cognitive biases (e.g., confirmation bias), cognitive dissonance, etc., which, depending on the baseline expectations of each individual, can radically alter how we subjectively interpret the same set of objective events or facts. (By the way, this is my explanation of how George Soros’ “reflexivity” manifests itself physically in humanity.)
The only way that a society could achieve Molyneux’s vision is if every individual had the identical baseline expectations and the identical cognitive biases. The former can be achieved through indoctrination into a rigid moral orthodoxy (which doesn’t sound like freedom to me), but the latter cannot be achieved simply because of the genetic diversity of humanity. Hence, even in Molyneux’s utopia, there will be disagreement and neutral arbiters will be required. In other words, the primary function of government cannot be disappeared because it is part of the human condition and not exogenous to it, as he seems to believe. As a result, even if you officially get rid of government, the power to arbitrate disputes and enforce judgment will remain, as will the tempation to use that power tyrannically.
some facts was presented wrong which is not worth picking on here. I am going to assume it was not intentional. do your own information gathering but suffice to say:
There’s a big difference between “open source” and “free software” (free not as free beer) do your own research on that. and wikileaks and wikipedia bad examples!!
like I said before, I think, it’s mostly about the language, and dedo, sir, my respect for you is growing daily.
ji, Stefan could be part of the music, can he not? Isn’t silence part of the note system? one does not have to agree with all he says. BTW what did others in that group say?
with all respect to john the baptist, i’m not disciple of anyone even though i share his vision of love another. specially if “I am you”.
and of course I’d love to hear your thoughts, and thanks, i learned a lot today too.
alister, the bar has indeed risen a lot lately
read more on free software on: http://www.gnu.org
This is very sad because Jesus was extraordinary, no matter what people think about the claims of divinity… Mark Lytle
You should check out how many times Jesus affirms the Old Testament. Here’s one:
But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29
Here’ a search of “Scripture” in the NT:
word search of “Scripture” in the NT
Furthermore,
Jean-Jacques Rousseau made the same general point when he wrote: “The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying ‘This is mine,’ and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”
In the words of a great man “all property is theft”
@talcott
I very much agree with you. My wife is a devoted Christian, and I go with her (as a good husband will) to her Bible study group, even though, I don’t believe all of the claims of inerrancy in that book.
I was struck over time by how credulous and uncritical the folks are, that books like Joshua, full of obvious military adventurism wasn’t purged out of it centuries or millenia ago. After 3 years at this Bible study, I concluded that welding the Old Testament to the New, pretty much negated most of Jesus’s core principals. It’s almost as though
at the council of Nicea, or even earlier, a conscious decision was made to include enough early Hebrew commandments of blind loyalty to the religious order, to negate totally Jesus’s urging to ‘judge a tree by it fruits’ i.e., think for yourself.
I feel the Bible is a very morally compromised document because of this. This is very sad because Jesus was extraordinary, no matter what people think about the claims of divinity…
@ Mother Earth
” Property rights are a contradiction too. One should talk about property grants, because the ‘right’ exists through the absence of challenges to it.The ‘right’ is to show others they should not challenge or they will annoy the powers that be or disturb the ongoing game.”
that is my contention on anything labeled a “RIGHT”
also @ (with reference to philosophy) ” It used to be linked to science but it became a polemic’s group wanking fest akin to sports commentary on imaginary tennis matches.”
American Philio became hyper obsessed with the anaylitical and bastardized continetal so I think it became to scientific/logic driven and less poetic driven so I guess I enjoyed the wanking fests
your contintion on morality is Utilitarian driven…I believe ethics and morality can arise without a foundational priciple…it is driven by the human emotion namely empathy….with that you can get it off the ground
I like the idea of paying in advance for government or in effect itemize it: How we could start that process is by removing “withholding” from people’s paychecks and let them receive a bill for the cost of government and then let’s see how receptive or passive people are to the actual costs of a large federal government.
I love it when someone states something like “I will gladly pay more in taxes” in response to tax rates and tax debates. And I am like “Really, will you mail that check in today? Or did you mail that check in yesterday? Are you ever paying more than the minimum that you are expected to pay?”
It is all lies, hypocrisy and intellectual immaturity to make these claims of exuberance or enthusiasm in paying more taxes. The only one making that claim is either someone who has no concept of money because they have too little of it or someone that has too much of it and don’t feel its impact.
@Tritone
“But Society has chosen to leverage Morality & Ethics by waiting until Jesus Christ comes to Judge the living and the dead.”
Who is “society” in this statement?
I perceive “society” to be an aggregate of individuals with a panoply of paradigms. Sometimes this perceptions are congruent, creating an illusion of cohesion. These types of over arching fallacious hyper generalizations are misleading.
True followers of Yeshua are not waiting around for anything.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
And indeed if the people in governance would adhere to solid ethical principals as, Mr Molyneux suggests the fruits of said institutions would be vastly different. Instead we get inbred faux christians(here in the USA) like gwbush, who couldn’t coherently articulate my pet goat, let alone lead in a manner guided by principals he claims to be affliated to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X4ZdGoBHmU&playnext=1&videos=NktgTns-8s0
Las Abejas/Agustin Barrios performed by Dimitris Kotronakis
@Tritone, a little on dark side, but are your facts facts.
Spent many months in Mexico, several in Mex.City. I’m a red headed pale face, walked around in every conceivable corner of that town, at all hours, it’s a horrible/wonderful kind of place, I did find a wallet missing one day on the subway, but other than that all was well. This from a gringo’s gringo. Third world in many ways pass those in first.
@ite, waad – bang on. Headache? It’s gone.
Über-anarchy = respect innit. Nice.
(a) Government in all its forms and by its nature is aggressive, hostile, violent
(b) IF one seeks less aggression…from an entity who’s nature it is to be aggressive, then you must seek less of that entity
(c) Therefore, in seeking less aggressive action in your environment, one would rationally desire less Government, as it is a repository of that which you would like to minimize
always a pleasure to hear Molyneux.
So many spybots here tonight flexing their university qualifications: killing all others’ intellect by degrees.
Great show. But attracted many flies.
hope people took my earlier comment in the facious nature it was given….off to work
maybe here is the answer or least a decent song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RYBDTnS7dg
@kitty
Well, you are using terms that seem to assume a lot of implicit or explicit knowledge regarinding morality..I think that when one person instructs another how to behave it is either because it is easier for that person to see you as part of his group, and increase your ‘likeness’ in order to feel safer, or it is because the person already feels a high sense of ‘likeness’ and wants you to be protected from discrimination of others in the group you are seen to be a member off. Either way it is to ease the burden on the instructor, as he/she can’t accept a world with the variety the instructed person displays, part of which may be otherwise riskless.
People simplify their behaviour in order to be comprehended by their dominators if they do not feel able to simply express whatever behaviour they have and defeat or sucessfully ignore any challenge to it.
Pfew..now I go jogging
Open source is necessary for creative development and innovation.
Big companies do not create enough new jobs and/or ideas:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/14/startups-or-behemoths-which-are-we-going-to-bet-on/
Talking about property.
Did anyone found out about this lawsuit involving VPN:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/virnetx-files-vpn-patent-suit-against-apple-cisco-nec.ars
I work with a range of people from all kinds of backgrounds and levels of education.
I just played the program for a very small, but diverse group of people.
The reaction was, well… let’s say, interesting…
But the comment that struck me the most was made by a very no nonsense matter of fact middle aged women. I asked the people who stuck around what they thought when the program was complete and noticed her reaction right away. She smiled a little smile, pursed her lips, then smiled again. She looked up, thought for a moment, hesitated, then said, “…to be honest with you, when that man talked, and some of the things he said… it’s like all the music was being sucked out of the room.”
Great show!
Another excellent show Max. Stefan Molyneux’s ideas are well considered and can make important contributions in the social transformation.
Without study, how this could be integrated into the political and economic power centers is beyond me.
@Mother Earth
In what you are saying I would go along. I can imagine it could lead to an energy which has people telling other people what they ‘ought’ to do, as to give a solution in terms of ‘means to an end’.
Not sure whether that is what I understand by saying ‘Is to Ought’ as I am more looking at codes of conduct which are espoused as apparent rules, that for some reason we are obliged to follow (or fall into going along with – somehow naturally?) becoming moral imperatives.
Kind of like reducing to a summum bonum or leading principle which in Stefan’s case are property rights.
@ Stefan Molyneux Have you now or ever been an Anarchist?
oh its call volenterism nooow…I musta missed the memo
@kitty
Is’s transition to ‘ought’ is where the brainst tendency to minimize energetic expenditure leads to simplifications that then start instructing the line of reasoning, in short: Occams razor. So A ought to follow from B should be read as: A, in order to minimize intellectual effort of taking into account runaway complexity by allowing other causes including those that may be unknown -and- subject to the presently known causes, follows from B.
Whoops! I forgot to check how to spell Stefan before hitting submit. I use Chrome without the “system titlebar” so didn’t have the name visible on screen. Chrome rulez but it would be better with something to kill cookies after each session :-p
The USA is on it’s way to failure, it is not there yet. There are those that will try, and are trying, to prevent the ‘failure’, you will see this effort grow in the coming months.
We shall see.
Stephan used the London pollution example to dodge the question and strengthen the meme that government is the sole source of violence. So the government sided with the guys who pay the most tax, but what would happen in the absence of government? And what does Stephan think the outcome would or should have been? Could it have resolved itself along the lines of his ideology?
The guys who pay most tax make the most profit and probably have the most property to protect. They may also employ the most people, who would fight to preserve their livelihoods. And, they have already initiated violence, at least in the eyes of the people whose profit (and possibly health) has suffered from the pollution. Will the guys with the big profits and expensive immovable property decide to stop their activities for the good of all? Almost certainly not. Will the others take up arms against them? If they think they can do enough damage to the operations of the polluters at a cost which is less than what they will lose from the continuation of the pollution then they will do so. Stephan turns a blind eye to the coercion inherent in our everyday lives.
The government may be funded by violence, but it can prevent other violence by forcing on us a set of guiding principles. 2 ships heading towards each other will collide if they do not agree on a set of rules. The same goes for people. Fortunately, it is against Stephan’s guiding principles to force everyone else to adopt them.
Unchallenged or unread?
@Mother Earth
‘selfcoercion through itterative inhibition of alternatives…’
yes that’s why I said ‘…and perceive myself to be in control of MY volition…’
I was letting Stefan have ‘freewill’ as a given premise because I still think his argument doesn’t work but I would let him have as many synthetic a priori assumptions as he likes.
Historically Kant followed Hume but in my book never surpassed him. It being Hume I believe who questioned how to ever get from IS to OUGHT.
Hume discusses the problem in book III, part I, section I of his A Treatise of Human Nature (1739):
In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, ’tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it.
@alister
Have you signed on to my pmf project yet? Its Aw- and then some
http://www.piratemyfilm.com/projects/177
@kitty,…..Your comments speak volumes with regard to your comprehension of Stefans reasoning ! believe it or not,……
Stefan Molyneux has presented long lectures on why so called “man-made” “global-warming” is, in fact, not a problem at all.
@kitty
Can a hungry kitty be reasonable?
ahem directing e.k obsession to google stacey – bbc. whatever i told him u had the raw story – and 2 call stacey. blame alan
Great guest. I am intrigued with his point of view.
The question was whether property rights and agression were mutually exclusive? Or some need for agression to maintain property rights, rather than just appeals to reason?
Stefan comes back with the Iraq example; but just because an act of agression can be the result of a violation of property rights (whatever) is no proof that property rights are not maintained by use of force.
So I pick up that cat and throw it at Stefan (I don’t own the cat in the act of throwing it but I take claim of it as a missile object long enough to throw it) then whilst Stefan is momentarily blinded (partly as he realizes I just lost my argument), I run in the place he lives and grab loads of cakes that he might say he owns and I do a runner. He gives chase shouting ‘be reasonable’ as I fill my belly. “I would have shared my buns with you anyway” he cries, as I escape never to be heard of again.
Is he going to have to play Jesus (who also didn’t say no to a few coin) if he ever gets robbed or what?
@Mother,..I’m only goading you (you know this),…actually I think you’re quite astute in most of your reasonings,…: )
@Dedo
I put on my rubber shoes and sneaked around their appertement a couple of times while they where snoring. You constantly break you neck over piles of gold and stale Cornish pasties, unbelievable..
I studied philosophy for a couple of years (not fulltime). It used to be linked to science but it became a polemic’s group wanking fest akin to sports commentary on imaginary tennis matches.
I base my philosphy on my knowledge of neurology, works better.
To summarise:
There are problems
There are governments
Therefore the governments caused the problems
@Mother,…”But that would have a hard time coming across to a junky at Penn station..”
and,..
“this is an intellectual idealist hoping humanity is capable of bringing its intellect up to a level that it can resolve all conflicts reasonably.
You’re jumping about a bit,..me thinks,…
Calm down mother,…you’ll get yourself in a state,.. : )
Most adepts I know, left university because it was so mind numbingly boring, and a detriment to their mental faculties,….
@Stacy,..didn’t you mention similar ?
@kitty
Thanks. Strangely our brain already knows what we are going to do before we become aware of it..Consciousness lags our resolve by a couple of hundreds of milliseconds..Volition should therefore be renamed ‘selfcoercion through itterative inhibition of alternatives and ignoring of our ignorance of the consequences of our actions’. But that would have a hard time coming across to a junky at Penn station..
@Mother,…BTW: No one here finds the need to state their qualification in order to present an argument,….
Apart from a certain DR,…but I’ll mention no names,…
But then again, do we actually own the cat? Or is it because it is in our possession that we think we do?
Certainly no morally responsible person would ever own a cat.
Hi Stefan,
Always thought your, or the guy on the Venus Project thing were Injun at http://www.houseprice crash. uk (I just lurk there). Whichever… I enjoy reading your stuff, but also the arguments written by the other ‘folks’, it certainly has changed my perspective on these banking issues, so I thank you for being part of that. You used the term ‘down the pike’ once there. No one in the UK would have used this phrase in that context you did. I figured then you were a penniless Yank or a Canadian stuck on the dole in a depressing northern town! This is how Sceppy or A Bastard et al, see you I suspect .Funny when Injun wrote, ‘I like Stefan…but…’
For what it is worth, (and do Anarchist, Randians do irony?)you do know that you will end up disappointed like the old Marxists from the 1960′s, you will find a world collective consciousness change pretty hard to achieve even with the help of the net, but hay …good luck.
Mike
Who could possibly ever own a cat or another person?
@Mother,…spy chology,….I knew it!
I wondered how you managed to track down that cafe, mAx and Stacy visited in gay Pari,…
Molyneux argumnet that the Government was the trigger for the failed fisherys in Newfoundland is absurd.
If 15 th century basque fisherman had access to diesel boats and modern sonar technology they would have done a good job raping the grand banks without help from their goverment.
They will not police such a resourse themselves as anybody who is more ruthless then themselves will return a larger catch.
The failure in the system is the interaction between the governed and the goverment.
A realization and understanding of these dynamics produces responsible goverment action such as the outlawing of catches in Icelandic waters when the goverment fishery officers isolate certain fishery boxes around the coast of Iceland when large numbers of juvenile fish are identified.
This guy is so far up his own arse I find it amazing that he has the ability to speak.
Come on Mother Earth, your showing your true colors, your adherence to such makes you a believer in the intrinsic immorality of mankind. Your stance makes you no different than those of religion.
Apparently because I can be aware of Myself (MY self) and perceive myself to be in control of MY volition (I.E. thus be responsible) I can understand ownership of myself.
Categorically this would appear to be something I can’t give away (using Stefan’s own argument).
As everything else I claim (hint hint) to own, I can give away, it would appear to be something categorically different.
Seems a simple bit of Cartesian dualism put a dent in Stefan’s rationalism.
Or at least one could ramble on back and forth and pick holes until the cows come home.
Personally when he starts pulling faces I just want to throw my cat at him.
Actually I don’t have a cat but then who could possilbe ever OWN a cat?
@Dedo
I have an acadamic grades in philosophy, spychology and neurology so I been around the block.
For example:
This guy maintains that in order to have a morality one needs a whole bunch of high end human sensitivities and behaviours, usually reserved to the top 20% of the world population. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BCt3o3I_jI this is an intellectual idealist hoping humanity is capable of bringing its intellect up to a level that it can resolve all conflicts reasonably.
In reality morality can simply be defined as behaviour that ensures the wellbeing of the largest part of the population, which allows all actions to be graded and requires no language skills, ergo applicable to all. Then you conclude that in order to educate the maximum amount of people on morality you can make up rules, but you could also religuish rule altogether allowing them to establish morality for themselves. That project has been shortcut by religious rules exerted by an imaginary authority etc…My point is a robust system does not assume that level of sensitivity and skill.
This is my morality expression project http://www.addemocracy.com
Enjoyed!! Good stuff for Just War Theorist, and for those that can think about anything but just war. His argument seems to focus on societal acceptance or resistance to war if the true cost were known to each individual in terms of $$. I really didn’t here much about the cost of human life factored in. The reference to the number of lives lost in Iraq for instance doesn’t include the millions externally displaced or the millions internally displaced, or the millions more suffering from injuries, and long term damage from exposure to certain elements or phycological damage. How can one even begin to calculate the real cost of war to? Shouldn’t we include the economical and ecological cost of BP’s Gulf disaster as well? Would they really be going after deep water oil if the military fuel needs didn’t exist?
Back to School? Bring Your Own Toilet Paper
http://www.cnbc.com/id/38711521
Well, that is almost the case for our 2 kids .. 15 Euros /Year .. for Loo-paper and having school toilets cleaned … now being collected from parents.
Mother Earth is on the money
I’m amazed at how Eric King manages week in week out to verbalise with such duplicate like enunciation of toned swagger – hypnotic.
Ted Butler say ‘all systems are go’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDX5Mlz46Vg&feature=related
Stefan clearly doesn’t know his American history very well. Jefferson never went around Congress when going after the babary pirates. He used the provision in the Constitution of LETTERS OF MARQUE AND REPRISAL. The same provision that RON PAUL tried to get Congress to use to go after the Al Qada terrorists instead of launching a useless war. That provison makes sense in the age of terrorism, where we can’t define our enemy. Get your facts straight.
@Mother,… Have a rummage around on this site:
http://www.v-50.com/for-subscribers/get-the-v-50-discoveries-here
(Courtesy of @Baggo donuts), to get you started/give you a heads up,…before you come back to me with your trite, regurgitated verbiage !
@Mother Earth
After years of study I am with you regarding Stefan!
Molyneux released a debunking zeitgeist webcast. It was similar to alex jones attempt. Infantile. Since then hes obviously come a long way, but hes still failing, just like max, to get that final puzzle piece, and see the bigger picture.
OWNERSHIP IS NOT REAL. All assumed independent ownership of anything is theft. YOU DONT OWN ANYTHING, NOT EVEN YOUR OWN BODY. (its a community resource) mONEY IS A SCAM FROM THE BOTTOM UP. iTS A PONZI FARCE AND IN THE EVENT OF ABUNDANCE CREATED BY TECHNICIANS, MONEY BECOMES USELESS. monetaryism is transcended (rather than reformed)
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com
@Mother,….you obviously do not understand the whole philosophy of volition,…..do some research and come back to us,…you’ll be a better person for it,….; )
Tip: Look at the bigger picture and all its component parts
Tony Blair donates book cash to injured soldier charity
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10988478
A spokesman said Mr Blair would hand over the reported £4.6m advance payment plus all royalties to honour “their courage and sacrifice”.
What a guy…
Eh, no, not really…
Tony Blair must be prosecuted
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=583
Blair has demonstrated a voracious and secretive greed. Since stepping down as prime minister in 2007, he has accumulated an estimated £20 million, much of it as a result of his ties with the Bush administration. The House f Commons Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, which vets jobs taken by former ministers, was pressured not to make public Blair’s “consultancy” deals with the Kuwaiti royal family and the South Korean oil giant UI Energy Corporation. He gets £2 million a year “advising” the American investment bank J P Morgan and undisclosed sums from financial services companies. He makes millions from speeches, including reportedly £200,000 for one speech in China.
Just like the Economy is a subset of the Ecology, the Economy and Ecology are a subset of Morality & Ethics.
But Society has chosen to leverage Morality & Ethics by waiting until Jesus Christ comes to Judge the living and the dead.
In the meantime let me tell you how much fun we are all going to have both in the USA & France.
In Colombia, the wealthy hire ( the poor) to hunt down and kill what they call ” Rat Children”. These are children that are homeless and live in the sewers of the city of Bogota. The reason is that they are offended by their appearance.
Until you have immersed yourself in a third world society you will not understand how deep the hole of inhumanity is.
In Brazil the wealthy are forces to fly Helicopters from office to office to avoid being kidnapped.
If you are a tourist and you happen to get lost in a poor neighborhood in Mexico city you will be robbed for sure and most likely killed.
As bad as the USA is it is still Disneyland relative to almost all of the world.
But we love violence. ” What, meta program your brain for Love” what are you ? some faggy ass, you’re nuts” I can not wait to shoot some kid in the ass and watch him roll around in pain LOL
Let’s do it dudes! let’s go to war with the world, to much fun, not fair for the rest !
Molyneux blames the governement. That would mean we would have no overarching organization. That is contradicted by his plea for ‘guiding principles’, which obviously need to be guarded somehow. He has no solution because he is an intellectual idealist assuming others are reasonable. With 92% of global citizen living of 10 USD/day you can see that is a fruitless stance.
Property rights are a contradiction too. One should talk about property grants, because the ‘right’ exists through the absence of challenges to it.The ‘right’ is to show others they should not challenge or they will annoy the powers that be or disturb the ongoing game.
@Great guest … great interview .. Thanks
@Stefan Molyneux … I’m with you all the way … I would guess that most sensible people would also agree with your principles. The real problem is however …. how do we get there from here ?
i.e. I’m sure that those currently established in power are not going to like – & therefore not support – the idea !!
@Dedo – yes, Stefan is a good guest; he’s great at articulating his understanding of the world and the economy
Really enjoyed that interview,….thanks !
NYMEX has taken a liking to silver all of a sudden.
Maybe because JPM palmed of its short positions onto smaller banks.
http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast_Gold+/Entries/2010/8/14_Ted_Butler_on_the_Metals_Market.html
Tons of gold imports turn to dust on arrival
Gold imported into the UAE by traders and investors turned out to be fake on closer inspection
http://www.emirates247.com/markets/gold/tons-of-gold-imports-turn-to-dust-on-arrival-2010-08-15-1.279082
Very interesting interview Max and Stefan.
I await the day when you put up a linked headline along the lines of ‘Honest thinkers to replace governments’.
Look forward to it
I hope you got my message about VOLUME !
Mike